Fireside Chat: Richard Bird, Jim Coudal, and Carlos Segura

Design: Then and Now
We gathered three design veterans (and old friends of 37signals), Richard Bird, Jim Coudal, and Carlos Segura, ‘round the Campfire to chat about “Design: Then and Now.” Topics included their roots/influences, what it’s like to sell your own products, dream projects, control freaks, the loss of craft in design, and how they used to walk five miles to school every day, in the snow, uphill, both ways.

About the chatters
Richard Bird’s R.BIRD & Company, Inc. is a New York design consulting firm with more than 20 years of experience in brand identity, consumer product packaging, and corporate ID. R.BIRD also sells limited edition, abstract art at Lavaluva.

Jim Coudal’s Coudal Partners works on television, print, identity, interactive, and brand development projects. Coudal also operates Jewelboxing, a source for custom DVD and CD packages, and The Show, home to limited-edition live performances on CD.

Carlos Segura’s Segura, Inc. is a multi-faceted design and communications firm that specializes in print, collateral, and new media communications. Segura also sells fonts at T-26 and custom designed blank CDR’s and cases at 5inch.

Sample quotes
Jim: “[Designers are] reworking old styles instead of making new ones. Eventually we’ll be nostalgic for yesterday or this morning.”

Richard: “Craftsmen are history. Including the likes of Muller-Brockmann, George Lois, Paul Rand and so on. The new design ‘leadership’ are those who draw attention through shock and awe.”

Jim: “Don’t tell anyone but it’s a big improvisation. And anyone who runs a creative firm and tells you differently is lying to you.”

Carlos: “Out ‘cooling’ someone is just a simple, easy, and empty thing to do.”

Richard: “[In the 80’s,] graphic design was a well-respected profession. Our point of view was sought out. Clients competed for our attention. There was a great deal of mystery around what we did and why.”

Carlos: “I’ve had only 6 good clients in my career. I define [a good] one as ‘allowing me to do what they hired me to do.’ I try very hard to do the same when I hire someone.”

Jim: “I truly believe my greatest mistakes are ahead of me. Something to look forward to.”

Full chat transcript after the jump.

Matt
When did you start designing? Any amusing stories about your first gig(s)?

Carlos
i’ve got 1

Carlos
when i got started doing this

Carlos
my goal was really to be a drummer in a band (that I was in for 9 years)

Carlos
i had 3 duties… 1) drummer, 2) drive the truck, and 3) tell people where we were playing.

Carlos
during that process, (i had NO IDEA) i was doing "design", i got known for doing some pretty cool flyers

Carlos
similar to what is done today for raves

Carlos
long story short…

Carlos
when i quit the band, one of my first gigs was as a "keyliner", and when the guy asked if i had experience

Carlos
i said yes

Richard
Exactly, Carlos. I, too, was my own first client. Promoting a rock’n’roll band in which I was a member. Without realizing it, I was learning the art of graphic design.

Richard
Pretty soon, I’m doing the same thing for friends, friends of friends, et cetera. Still, didn’t really feel it was any kind of calling.

Carlos
well, the first job i had was to keyline a catalog

Carlos
and he gave me a blue pencil and told me to mark it up

Carlos
i asked why a blue pencil

Carlos
another guy said because the camera does not "see" it

Carlos
since i did not know that

Carlos
i got fired on the spot, since he knew i had no clue what i was doing.

Matt
hah

Jason
Carlos, didn’t you used to design the security liners for envelopes? Wasn’t that one of your first jobs?

Carlos
yes,

Carlos
the second job i had was designing the return addresses for bank deposit envelopes

Carlos
i then moved "up" to design the patterns inside the envelopes

Carlos
that was the most i’ve learned at a job

Carlos
it still serves me to this day

Matt
what year are we talking about?

Carlos
1972 and on

Jim
I edited a magazine that I started in college but it never occurred to me until I was in the middle of the first issue that it needed to be designed. So I swiped a bunch of ideas from The Village Voice and Punch Magazine and Esquire and…

Jim
that was pretty much that

Jim
once I got a hold of the optical headline setter I was hooked

Matt
jim, what year was that magazine?

Jim
I guess 83

Jim
"Fallout"

Matt
true or false carlos: when you played drums, you had a pair of platform shoes that had a fishbowl inside the heel?

Carlos
true

Jim
hehehe

Matt
LOVE IT!

Jason
Richard, what about you?

Richard
I got my first professional gig as a graphic artist completely by accident. I was in New York to do some recording with the band. The band leader suggested I bring my portfolio of drawings (I studied studio art) and see if I could find a job to help out with rent. So, on Monday I headed to an appointment with an employment agency and missed the door, accidentally walking into a small husband/wife graphic arts studio. They were frantically busy. I was hired on the spot. Didn’t have a clue what it was all about. Not really.

Richard
That was 1977.

Richard
I spent every spare hour I had there in the darkroom, on the board, reading, et cetera. That was my real education.

Jason
RB — wow, what a great story.

Jason
The one thing I take away from all of your stories is that great things usually happen by accident.

Carlos
i agree

Jason
Too much planning and you plan your way *out* of opportunities.

Jason
I’ve often felt plans are like blinders. Look this way and only this way. Who needs that?

Jim
I concur

Jim
later I was working at a tv station

Jim
ch 32

Richard
(Jim: for me, it was radio.)

Matt
question about influences:

Matt
Did you have people who influenced you when you began? How have your influences changed over the years? Now that you’re more experienced, do you find you get your inspiration from within instead of from outside sources?

Jim
I always looked up to Carlos

Carlos
ahhh

Jim
and I guess once I discovered Brockmann I had a direction to follow

Jim
I get influence from film and art and stuff

Jim
try to bend other stuff into design rather than necessarily looking at other designs

Jim
lots of record covers and magazines were important too

Carlos
i was influenced by Japan for visual input and body language, UK for type direction

Carlos
there were many "teaching" tools back in the day that are in essence gone now

Carlos
one good example are paper promos

Carlos
today, they are full of tricks and special effects

Carlos
devoid of "teaching"

Carlos
but, back then, they were full of tips and techniques

Carlos
primarily because you really had to know your shit

Carlos
or you were out

Carlos
but also

Carlos
they were good trend spotters

Jim
def

Carlos
the best example of this is the book called "The Pocket Pal".

Carlos
this was originally a international papers promo

Carlos
it is now a classic book with it’s own website

Carlos
very helpful

Jim
esp relevant to print production and printing techniques

Carlos
a lot of things that designers are involved with today are often done improperly.

Richard
Craft is a big problem.

Jim
yup

Carlos
the preparation of files for print is a great example

Richard
I drive myself crazy with the poster ads on the trains.

Richard
So many things "wrong" in so many dimensions.

Jim
1 out of every 5 student layouts has poorly handled typography

Jim
you can’t be a carpenter without knowing how to drive a nail

Carlos
I learned all i know as a "stripper", and while it was all "analog", it still applies

Matt
Is it the rise of computers that’s killed the ‘craft’ of design?

Richard
No doubt.

Carlos
true

Jim
C

Richard
Nobody "touches" type any more.

Carlos
the problem is even deeper though, because the tasks like kerning, leading and trapping are completely missing from most efforts

Jason
Let me jump in here, just to take the other position…

Jason
Maybe today’s design is just a different kind of design

Jason
Like digital music isn’t Mozart

Jim
shoddy is shoddy

Carlos
i don’t agree

Carlos
there are rules

Carlos
and not in the "old school" way

Jim
totally agree

Carlos
just that there are proper way to handle type

Carlos
old or new

Carlos
part of the problem is the schools and what they (don’t) teach

Jason
You could argue that most people making music today can’t read music. Is that a bad thing?

Carlos
that is not the same thing

Jim
you can’t toss thousands of years of trial and error out the window just because your assistant got a copy of indesign

Carlos
right

Carlos
and

Carlos
you can be a good designer and not have "training" (as i am) just like you don’t have to read music to make it

Carlos
but

Carlos
there are ways to do it right

Jason
I agree, I was just curious about your take. I definitely see and feel the loss of "craft."

Jason
I think Carlos will agree — we get what we deserve.

Jim
yup

Jason
We want everything faster and cheaper.

Jason
There’s no time for craft in most projects.

Jason
Craft is seen as unnecessary cost these days. Isn’t it your jobs to stick up for it? How much craft do you push back on and say "we *must* do this right?"

Jason
You guys are the leaders. If you don’t inject craft who will?

Richard
Of course, we inject craft, it’s just not noticed by the client. We could produce the same "idea" shoddily and it will go.

Richard
In other words, the craft of design is no longer so much a differentiator.

Jim
right

Carlos
there is a belief that "craft" is an automatic task that comes bundled with the "computer". It IS NOT. But because of it, it is being forgotten, ignored and worse yet, dismissed as "old".

Jim
the kids can buy the equipment for a couple grand

Jim
but here’s the important part

Jim
they’re BETTER editors

Jim
the know it intrinsically

Jim
they breathe it

Jim
and sometimes you can see that sort of thing in design too

Richard
Right. Craftsmen are history. Including the likes of Muller-Brockmann, George Lois, Paul Rand and so on. The new design "leadership" are those who draw attention through shock and awe.

Richard
I understand what you’re saying about mastering the tools, Jim, while there are many who claim to, very few actually do.

Carlos
very few

Jim
jason would you say that by and large the cleanest best looking sites most often have the cleanest best looking code?

Jason
Jim, I think people that want to build beautiful things on the outside also want to build beautiful things on the inside.

Jason
So those that really care care about both in and out, surface and code.

Richard
Love that - inside/outside - thing, JF. That’s a good thought. That’s a curse and a blessing.

Carlos
perhaps because i am a type guy

Carlos
this part pains me the most

Carlos
and i see it everywhere

Carlos
even the "pros" (clients and firms) are guilty of it

Jim
the great work with type stands out even higher for lack of competition

Matt
Carlos, you once said, ‘The early nineties was a very energetic period in graphic design as a whole, and there was plenty of acceptance to go around for different points of views.’…The idea of good/bad design cycles, in the same way there are economic boom/bust periods, is interesting. What was the best/worst era of design during your career? What kind of era are we in now?

Jim
I think the mid 80’s were important for attitude and bold layouts in advertising anyhow

Richard
80’s - best of my experience. Graphic design was a well-respected profession. Our point of view was sought out. Clients competed for our attention. There was a great deal of mystery around what we did and why.

Carlos
the period we are in now is one of reservation

Carlos
especially in type

Jim
the beginning of the "ironic" voice

Jim
agreed carlos

Carlos
"helvetica" is in, and has been for some time

Carlos
we can’t wait to copy each other

Carlos
i think that sometimes our colleges define how good you are based on how good a copy you can make

Jason
Really interesting point, Carlos.

Jim
reworking old styles

Jim
instead of making new ones

Carlos
right

Jim
eventually we’ll be nostalgic for yesterday

Jim
or this morning

Matt
sounds very similar to music these days where remixing, mashups, sampling, etc. are growing in popularity.

Jim
interesting point

Jim
searching for authenticity

Carlos
right

Jim
things seem so temporary

Jim
we try to emulate stuff from the past that "mattered"

Jason
We’ve seen this from time to time with our products. Someone was so excited that they copied Tada List.

Jason
But what’s exciting about a copy? That’s saying "I don’t have anything new to offer."

Carlos
the US car industry is a great example

Carlos
trying to re-live the good old days

Jim
its everywhere guys

Jim
cars, music, movies, music

Matt
they all influence each other too obvs

Jim
its like paying an old song in a commercial

Jim
push button for emotion

Matt
heh, when i hear "lust for life" on a carnival cruise commercial or janis joplin selling mercedes benz, it makes me crazy. wtf?

Jim
‘(we sound like a bunch of old grampas)

Jim
grrrr fucking kids’

Richard
flibidy-floo

Carlos
this lack of respect for craft blends into the landscape and the by product is that things start to NOT matter. They are seen as "old".

Carlos
we need to change that

Carlos
don’t apologize for it

Carlos
some people actually look up to us

Matt
i think it’s good for kids to hear people stand up for what they believe in. don’t give up the fight.

Matt
ok, shifting gears: Between T-26, 5-inch, Jewelboxing, The Show, and Lavaluva, you’ve all got your own products you’re creating and selling. How’s that compare to doing normal client work? Is that something you’ve always wanted to do? Or did it result out of a frustration with the typical client-designer relationship?

Carlos
both

Jim
both

Carlos
but it is a personal goal to control my destiny

Jim
that’s totally it

Matt
So the ideal is no client work?

Carlos
YES!!!

Jim
to give ourselves the room to be picky about when and if we take client assignments

Carlos
ditto

Matt
gotcha.

Richard
So, everything comes full circle… We began as our own clients and will end (survive) that way.

Richard
Some of the most exciting work I see today is in Industrial Design. If I had to start over again, I might go that way.

Matt
RB, what industrial design excites you?

Matt
For all: Any dream clients? Specific design/redesign job you wish you could do?

Jim
I have always wanted to try and work on JUST ONE THING for an extended period of time

Richard
Focus… that’s a great thing.

Jim
just take the time to make ONE THING PERFECT

Jason
Jim I love that idea.

Jason
What freedom — to just work on one thing and nail it.

Matt
any one thing in particular?

Jim
I dunno, a film, a magazine, a house

Richard
So much of client work doesn’t allow focus. In fact, it discourages it. And, certainly, doesn’t reward it.

Jim
exactly

Richard
That’s a great point, Jim, in so many ways.

Richard
Years ago, it was not so unusual to be working with one client on one thing for one or two years. That doesn’t happen any more. Our attention and focus is fragmented.

Richard
So, the results show it.

Jim
if I was a contractor I could go home open a beer and say "I built that this month"

Jim
I’m always doing 20 things

Jim
I like to think I do them well and I get a rush from Full Panic Mode

Matt
def something to that though i wonder if it could also be a grass is greener thing. perhaps once you have just one thing to work on you yearn for the variety of diff projects.

Jason
Something I find interesting though… Each one of you guys owns and runs your own business, yet you’re still looking for ways to run it the way you want to run it. What’s holding you back? You’ll never have more freedom than you have now.

Jim
we have employees and mortgages and tuitions

Jason
"Our…" "Not any more…" This all sounds very unfortunate. Isn’t it up to you? You run your business.

Jim
or does the business run you?

Jim
don’t tell anyone but

Jim
it’s a big improvisation

Jim
and anyone who runs a creative firm and tells you differently is lying to you

Jim
or lying to herself

Jason
Yeah, that’s why we got out of the client business ;)

Jim
:)

Jason
I guess in many ways Jewelboxing, t26, and 5inch are those side projects that allow you to do it the way you want to do it.

Matt
re: improv…i’ve been seeing comedians live quite a bit lately and i find there seems to be an 80/20 mix that the best ones go for: 80% established material and 20% untested or improvised material. i wonder if there’s something to that sorta formula. keeps cycling in some freshness but have enough trusted material to keep you afloat.

Richard
Our approach to initial ideation is a lot like that now… allowing untested ideas into the mix. It’s actually been quite successful.

Matt
RB, you seem to experiment with new processes and ways of working. do clients respond to that? or is it tough to convince them that stuff matters?

Richard
Clients love new processes as long as they don’t have to buy it ;)

Carlos
true

Carlos
btw… With T26, it was good to contribute to the industry and change the category. I feel proud of that.

Matt
CS, what’s been the biggest impact of T26 on the industry?

Carlos
wow

Carlos
there were really a lot

Carlos
and since it’s been 12 years now

Carlos
they seem to be forgotten

Carlos
giving credit to designers, permitting relaxed licensing, allowing service bureaus to use the font for output, donating funds to non-profits (AIDS), displaying spreads for each font, creating a "music video" for each font, our limited edition font kits, and many many more, are just a few of the innovations T26 put on the market.

Jim
for me personally the most fun is learning something new

Jim
running your own thing gives you that freedom

Jim
and it’s powerful

Matt
JC, what are some new things you’ve learned recently?

Jim
we’re working on this photo project and we’re creating a way to do the backdrops digitally

Jim
most of the learning comes with the goofing around

Jim
which is essential;

Matt
Carlos, what’s your dream client or (re)design job?

Carlos
anything car related

Carlos
i recently started CarType.com and I LOVE IT

Carlos
i need to find a way to make some cash with that

Matt
What car-related design is most exciting to you right now?

Carlos
well

Carlos
again, i love type, so i especially like the relationship of how type is used on cars, from the readability of the speedometer, to the engine numbers stamped an the frame, and what they mean

Richard
Recent interests: Back in 1978, Todd Rundgren and I were the only people on the planet (maybe) writing 3D software on an Apple II. Over the last 3 years or so, I’ve been revisiting design in 3D.

Jason
Here’s something I’m genuinely interested in… When’s the last time any one of you were a client? What was that experience like?

Jason
One thing I’ve realized is that being a client is hard.

Jason
I learned it when I hired some people to work on my house. It’s tough to trust people that can have so much impact on something that’s yours.

Jim
never a client, really

Jim
not in the design or ad biz

Richard
Oh, geez. I’ve been a client of architects a few times. One very bad experience, one very good. Bad experience: the designers simply didn’t listen to requirements. Good experience: very collaborative.

Carlos
i’ve had only 6 good clients in my career. I define one as "allowing me to do what they hired me to do". I try very hard to do the same when i hire someone. We are "clients" in our daily lives more often than we care to admit.

Jim
C and J and R

Jim
are you control freaks?

Richard
I don’t want to admit it, but way too often. Yes, a control freak. Only recently did my own Mother admit to me that my grandfather said, "Little Ricky’s gonna have a hard time when he grows up… He wants everything to be just so." I was 5, maybe, at the time.

Jim
hehe

Carlos
i admit it too

Carlos
but

Carlos
i do not apologize for it

Carlos
i am more open to permitting people to grow than you’d think

Carlos
i just expect a lot

Carlos
common sense is not so common any more, so I feel like i am often disappointed with basic human behavior.

Jim
I try to hide it, sometimes successfully

Richard
Yeah, expectations are high.

Matt
i don’t think you can do what you guys do w/o being a control freak.

Matt
and i don’t think it’s necessarily a bad quality.

Richard
Certainly. Some of the most respected designers in any discipline are known to be "tyrants" and perfectionists.

Jim
I don’t take over jobs

Jim
I just never give them up to begin with!

Matt
heh

Matt
SHIFT: How much do you separate your work from your life? Has that balance changed over the years? Is your goal to integrate them as much as possible or keep them separate?

Carlos
it has changed in a big way for me

Carlos
i worked 24/7 for years

Carlos
now (perhaps because I am older and sick of the bullshit) i take more time to enjoy what I believe i have earned

Richard
I’m a slob at home… and there’s little evidence of what I do for a living. That’s not at all a conscious decision.

Richard
Meanwhile, I’ve measured every centimeter of our office in some way.

Jim
keep the working hours and locations separate

Jim
i’ve made a decision that I WILL NOT work at all when I’m home w/ the fam

Jim
work is too dominant in my life

Carlos
it is in mine too

Richard
Like Carlos, I work way too hard and too long. So, I don’t too it at home by default.

Jim
but I don’t feel stuck, just a bit unbalanced

Jim
having 3 kids is making a difference

Matt
i bet!

Matt
Last one…What’s been your biggest mistake? What did you learn from it?

Carlos
i now search for greater importance in the jobs i take

Carlos
i feel like it all is for not sometimes

Matt
CS, how do you define "importance"?

Carlos
how do I define "importance"? i define it as not doing something for the simple sake of it, and in hopes of making a real difference in the category that I am working in. Even better, if i can do something that will be a positive and helpful solution. Out "cooling" someone is just a simple easy and empty thing to do.

Jim
I waited forever to start my own thing

Jim
wasted 3-5 years

Matt
JC, what was holding you back?

Matt
fear?

Jim
fear

Jim
laziness

Richard
Biggest mistake is ongoing. Somewhere along the line, I’ve become aware of risk. In best of times, the concept of risk never entered my mind. Just go with the flow and things happen. I’d like to recapture that.

Jim
I truly believe my greatest mistakes are ahead of me

Matt
JC, u sound optimistic about that. as perhaps you should be.

Jim
something to look forward to

Richard Bird art directing in 1979: